It’s not just protest (Madison)

Although those dramatic demonstrations, like the ones we saw in Madison, capture the imagination, by themselves, they won’t change a policy or a government.  Protest signals, supports, and coerces.  Changes in politics and policy depend upon how a broad range of people not protesting respond to those who are out in the streets.

In response to my last post on Madison, about a week ago, olderwoman writes that the Wisconsin 14 (Democratic senators staging a quorum filibuster) would not have fled the capital and the state without the support of a growing protest movement.  She’s right, of course, and has been filing great first-hand reports and analysis on the Wisconsin stand-off on her blog, sociological confessions.  The point is that the demonstrators are responding to, and affecting, the more usual politics in the state.

Governor Scott Walker’s opponents have won a few important victories since I last posted on Madison.  Notably, Governor Walker wanted to clear the capital building of the demonstrators, but the police were slow to do so–and then a Dane County judge ruled that the protesters–like all citizens of Wisconsin–were entitled access to the building.

If you’re following the battle in Wisconsin, you can add the bureaucracy and the judiciary to your scorecard, which should already include the Wisconsin legislature, Governor Walker, organized labor, and the Koch brothers (and their affiliated organizations).

Governor Walker also released his full budget, which featured large cuts in spending and services.  He explicitly challenged the absent senators to return and do their jobs (lose votes), while announcing cuts in spending for poor people (particularly spending for health care), benefit cuts for public workers, and large cuts to public education from K-university.

Predictably, this has strengthened the resolve of the Democrats in the legislature and the demonstrators in the streets (and in the capitol building).  It’s very clear that the conflict isn’t just about workers’ benefits or the budget; Governor Walker is trying to deliver a very different vision of governance in Wisconsin.  To underscore this points, the unions, and the Democratic senators, have offered to sign off on all the financial concessions (which are substantial) in exchange for preserving collective bargaining.  Walker has repeatedly rejected such a bargain.  He has also repeated his intent to order layoffs of public workers if his bill is not passed.

Wisconsin is really a swing state, and the resistant Democrats are likely representing their constituencies as faithfully as the Republicans ready to pass Walker’s budget (maybe moreso, because these are the ones who survived electoral campaigns in a very bad year for Democrats).

Republicans and Democrats have both commenced gathering signatures to recall legislators who aren’t voting the way they want.  Walker, who has been governor for far less than a year, isn’t yet eligible for recall, but many Republican senators, on whose votes he depends, are.  Thus far, reports suggest that the Democrats, supported by organized labor, are doing better at gathering signatures, and a few Republican senators have suggested an openness to compromise.  Today, Republican state senator Rob Cowles (who could be recalled) emphasized the need to compromise (Green Bay Press Gazette):

“You have to be flexible because some way, some how there will be an amendment modifying the collective bargaining,” he said. “It’s an incredible situation (the Democrats leaving) that none of us ever thought would happen. So negotiations on this are critical to move past this and move on to the budget, which also has a number of dilemmas.”

Cowles lamented that collective bargaining has dominated the conversation in Madison and across the state, casting a black cloud over reforms in the 2011-2013 budget bill that seek to balance the state’s $3.6 billion deficit without raiding funds, raising taxes, massive borrowing or questionable accounting practices.

The 14 senators can’t stay away forever. And the demonstrators who have been sleeping out in capitol and continuing to assemble on weekends, can’t maintain their numbers indefinitely.  Their success will be dependent upon activating and supporting allies who are carrying their cause indoors.

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More on the Phelps Family (Not much, I hope)

At Slate, David Weigel reports that Michael Moore lampooned the Phelps Family and the Westboro Church nearly fifteen years ago, posting a video.  He also notes that Sarah Palin is angry about the Court’s decision, and has attacked it on Twitter.

I’ve drunk enough of the Bill of Rights free speech Kool-Aid to think that the Court decision was exactly right, that depending upon government to regulate hateful and heinous speech is far worse than our, imperfect, alternative.

The question then is figuring out how to stop being played by a tiny group that understands both its legal rights and our discomfort.

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The Phelps Family and the Supreme Court

The Supreme Court ruled today that vicious anti-gay rhetoric, deployed at unrelated events, was Constitutionally protected (8-1, Justice Alito dissenting).

The tiny Westboro church, comprised mostly of Pastor Fred Phelps and his family, pickets military funerals and other public occasions, trying to project their view of God’s judgments about homosexuality to anyone whose attention they can get.  They’ve been doing this for nearly a decade.  The Court, affirming the decision of an appellate court, set aside a jury verdict awarded to the father of a marine whose funeral was picketed–at a distance.

Through provocative language deployed in inappropriate settings, the Phelps family has been hugely successful in generating a great deal of attention for themselves and their beliefs.

Opponents of the Phelps family need to think about whether counterprotests or neglect represent the best strategy in response.  Ignoring them won’t make them go away, but attacking them projects the conflict–and the Phelps message–to a broader audience.

You can read a profile of Fred Phelps at the Southern Poverty Law Center’s site.

We’ve covered some of their events:

at Elizabeth Edwards’s funeral;

about the argument, made by Margie Phelps, Fred’s daughter, in the Supreme Court; and about the strategy in general.

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Beck & Piven III

NPR’s All Things Considered has come to the Beck/Piven saga, a story we discussed  a while back [see (II) and (I)].  Maybe this is getting to the tale late; on the other hand, once crazy provocative charges reach a few crazy provoked people, the story can continue for a long time.

You’ll recall that Glenn Beck identified Frances Fox Piven as one of the 9 people who most threatened the Constitution of the United States.  A couple of those dangerous people are dead (Sigmund Freud, Edward Bernays); eight of them are Jewish.  Oddly, this last fact hasn’t gotten much explicit attention.

A small slice of Beck’s audience has taken to making their own threats against those threatening people.  Active (and alive!) with easy-to-find contact information, Piven has received hundreds of appalling e-missives, some of them pretty scary.  And we all know it takes only one crazy person to do a lot of damage.

Beck’s charges focused on a willful misrepresentation of an article Piven (and her husband, Richard Cloward) published 40 plus years ago:  “The Weight of the Poor: A Strategy to End Poverty,” originally published in The Nation on May 2, 1966.

Beck’s rhetoric is inflammatory, irresponsible, and ill-informed.

Unfortunately, much of the coverage has ignored the real politics Piven has pursued, sometimes effectively, over the past half-century.  The NPR story painted Piven as an obscure, old, and frail academic, and portrayed the 1966 article as an effort to organize welfare recipients in an effort to streamline the administration of welfare.

That’s not the way I see Frances Piven, and it’s not the way I read that old article, which explained:

A series of welfare drives in large cities would, we believe, impel action on a new federal program to distribute income, eliminating the present public welfare system and alleviating the abject poverty which it perpetrates. Widespread campaigns to register the eligible poor for welfare aid, and to help existing recipients obtain their full benefits, would produce bureaucratic disruption in welfare agencies and fiscal disruption in local and state governments. These disruptions would generate severe political strains, and deepen existing divisions among elements in the big-city Democratic coalition: the remaining white middle class, the white working-class ethnic groups and the growing minority poor. To avoid a further weakening of that historic coalition, a national Democratic administration would be constrained to advance a federal solution to poverty that would override local welfare failures, local class and racial conflicts and local revenue dilemmas. By the internal disruption of local bureaucratic practices, by the furor over public welfare poverty, and by the collapse of current financing arrangements, powerful forces can be generated for major economic reforms at the national level.

In seeking to emphasize how distorted Beck’s views are, the reporter flattened most of the politics and presence out of a consequential person and an important set of arguments–that extend well beyond that 1966 article.

But a little bit of the real Frances Fox Piven peeked out at the end of the piece, trying to redirect attention away from the crazy commentator to a crooked (and more consequential) political economy.  About Beck’s invective, Piven said:

It’s a lunatic story, but it’s a story that nevertheless is clear. You can get your hands around it. This woman is somehow responsible for the upsetting changes in your small town where the factory closed down. I don’t blame them for being upset. It is upsetting. But I blame Glenn Beck for telling them a factually untrue, crazy story about why those changes occurred.

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Beyond Madison: Who’s Watching? Who’s Talking? Who’s Doing?

Watch the crowd in a fight.

That’s an old insight in the social sciences, stated pretty clearly by E. E. Schattschneider in The Semi-Sovereign People fifty years ago.

The point: The losers in any political struggle have an interest in bringing new people into the battle, mobilizing reinforcements or appealing to superior authorities.  Those who are winning have every interest in keeping the conflict from spreading.  (As the oldest of three children, it was easy for me to understand this; it’s the baby of the family who’s most likely to call for mom to intervene.)  Protest is one tactic for getting outside attention and turning audiences into activists.

The unfolding Wisconsin story illustrates the importance of capturing and activating audiences.  Governor Walker had the votes in the state legislature to push through almost anything he wanted, and what he wanted, among other things, was to cripple the unions representing public employees.  Democrats in the state senate, facing a sudden vote on largely unknown legislation, took the best shot they had in stopping Governor Walker by denying the majority the quorum needed for taking a vote.  They’re still in Illinois.

Maybe Governor Walker or a few of the Republican senators will reconsider.  More important, however, is that by taking off for Illinois,  the senators gave their allies both attention and time to make their case.

This is outrageous, of course, and the people who are most outraged are those who want the spotlight on the issue to go away.  (The National Republican party is heavily invested in the issues–and the personalities–in Wisconsin.)  Republicans in the state senate, and then across the country, have attacked the absent senators.  According to numerous Republican governors, the state senators are derelict in their duty, and that duty is to go back to Madison and lose.  Nikki Haley, in South Carolina, calls the missing senators, “cowardly.” New Jersey’s Chris Christie announced that he trusts Governor Walker to do what’s best for Wisconsin.  And Arizona Governor Jan Brewer described the Democratic senators as “despicable,” for preventing the majority from passing the bill.

But the Democrats in the state senate took their politics outdoors, where they might win, and where, even if they don’t win, others could see them and join them.  And their supporters have come through, big time, with large demonstrations in the Capitol.  The unions most directly affected have found allies in other unions that were exempted, protected by the police and led in marches by the firefighters.  They also found allies across Wisconsin (and particularly in Madison) who had other gripes with Governor Walker and his budget plans.  They’ve been demonstrating, sleeping in the state capitol building, and spreading the word.

[Here’s David Weigel’s report on the camp-outHere’s a professor’s participant/observer report on the demonstrations in Madison.]

Supporters outside Wisconsin have rallied to support the demonstrators’ cause.  Ian’s Pizza in Madison has shut down its normal operations and is only making and delivering pizzas donated (from around the world) to the protesters; restaurants up and down State Street have been donating food to the demonstrators.

Moveon.org has sponsored sympathy demonstrations across the United States, including demonstrations in every state capital, and the AFL-CIO has joined in.  Organizers asked demonstrators to wear red and white, badger colors, to show their support to the protesters in Wisconsin.   (Here’s the New York Times report; here’s one from CBS News.)  The rallies are going to vary in size and tone; some have been met by Tea Party counterdemonstrators.

Sympathy rally in California

At this point, however, the most important point is that the political battle has extended far beyond the Wisconsin legislature, and whatever happens in Madison will play out far beyond the borders of Wisconsin.

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On Wisconsin and beyond

The protests in Madison are just the start of a larger struggle about budgets and labor across the United States.

I’m on the Joy Cardin show on Wisconsin Public Radio, talking about the protests in Madison.  (I got to tell the bagpipes joke.)

It’s about more than collective bargaining in Wisconsin, and the longer the demonstrations go on, the more debate we’ll see on other aspects of Governor Walker’s budget-balancing strategy.  Here’s a hint from an activist in Wisconsin:

But there is a lot of other stuff in the bill that is being completely ignored. It would give the governor the right to kill off Medicaid — a coalition is trying to bring up that issue, but isn’t making it out of the din. Another part of the bill that isn’t being contested is the right of the Governor to sell off state property without taking competitive bids or gaining the approval of the Public Works Commission. And, of course, with so much under attack, nobody is even considering the possibility of improving social services for the most destitute. This year’s deficit could be made up at $32 per adult in the state — it just isn’t that big. But the Republicans are busy cutting revenue via cutting various business taxes.

Clearly, it’s about something bigger than any state’s budget.  Governor Chris Christie says that this is a class struggle: “There can no longer be two classes of citizens: those that receive rich retirement and health benefits, and those that pay for them” (from Politico).  Governor Christie’s solution is to cut retirement and health benefits, forcing the norm downward and playing a politics of resentment.

Democratic state legislators in Indiana have fled to Illinois, where they’ve promised to stay until Governor Mitch Daniels agrees to withdraw a bill limiting union dues.  (Illinois is a big state, but maybe they’ll see the Wisconsin state senators there.)

Union-organized protests have spread to Ohio, where Governor John Kasich is pushing similar restrictions on public unions. The New York Times reports:

Several thousand pro-union protesters filled a main hall of the state courthouse in Columbus and gathered in a large crowd outside, chanting “Kill the bill,” waving signs and playing drums and bagpipes. There were no official estimates, but the numbers appeared to be smaller than those in Madison last week. One Democratic state legislator put the figure at 15,000.

(You may remember the “kill the bill” chant from Tea Party protests against health care reform.)

And in Wisconsin, union activists are planning a general strike in the event that Governor Walker signs the anti-union bill.  From the Wisconsin State Journal:

The 97-union South Central Federation of Labor of Wisconsin is laying groundwork for a general strike if Gov. Scott Walker succeeds in enacting legislation that would strip most bargaining rights from most public employee unions.

Federation president Jim Cavanaugh said Tuesday that he couldn’t predict how many unions might take part in a strike, but opposition to Walker has grown rapidly.

“Two weeks ago who would have thought there would have been 70,000 people on the Capitol Square demonstrating on behalf of worker rights?” Cavanaugh said. “We have had an awful lot of statements of support from around the country.”

Whatever happens in Wisconsin, the battles over state budgets have engaged a larger debate about organized labor in the public sector that won’t disappear quickly.  Recognizing what’s at stake, the unions are making serious commitments to take their case public.  And the rest of us are going to be pushed to take sides.  (This is how protest works!)  Here’s Pete Seeger’s version.


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On and on Wisconsin

The stand-off in Madison continues:

Firefighters playing bagpipes lead labor's march

Activists organized by, or supporting, the state’s major labor unions continue to march in and around the State House.

Importantly, the firefighters, police officers, and other public safety employees, exempted from this harsh budget bill, have stood with the teachers, nurses, and social workers.  Some are camping out in front of the state house.  (In Madison in February, this is a serious commitment.)

The Tea Party opponents, who visited Madison and marched over the Presidents’ Day weekend, have mostly gone home–and to the internet.  Online, they’re talking about the great deals organized workers have.

I’ve seen comments like:  “June, July, and august off?  I’d take that.”   But would you take the 34 fourth graders for nine months leading up to that time off?

Governor Scott Walker is cultivating a national presence, arguing that sharp restrictions on labor’s capacity to organize are necessary to balance any kind of state budget.  Emphatically, he refuses to negotiate or compromise.

Fourteen Democratic state senators continue to hide out (and give interviews) in Illinois, denying the Republican majority the quorum it needs to vote on budget bills.  They emphasize their willingness to compromise on everything but the right to meaningful collective bargaining.

Governor Walker and the Republican Majority in the State Senate have resumed their legislative work, and have urged the Democratic minority to return to the State House to vote (and LOSE) on the budget bill.

The state senators remain out of state, cheered on by the demonstrators in Madison.

Who’s got leverage?  The quorum is preventing the Wisconsin State Senate from doing budget business.  (It has, however, passed a resolution commending the Green Bay Packers on their season.)

Governor Walker says that without a budget he will commence lay-offs to balance the budget.  He hopes that there are enough threats and incentives here to peel off the support of some Wisconsinites–and at least one Democratic Senator.

But it’s way bigger than Wisconsin now.  Indiana and Ohio are now considering similar bills restricting public employees’ unions.  Large business interests, including the Chamber of Commerce and the Koch brothers (via Tea Party groups), supports the Republican governors, and has worked to mobilize opinion and activism against the unions.

Liberal activists have also responded.  Moveon.org is mobilizing nationally in support of the Wisconsin workers.

It’s not the whole world, but lots of people are watching.

In effect, there is every pressure on both the governor and the Wisconsin Democrats to continue the standoff.  Outside Madison, activists see this as an early battle in a much longer struggle about organized labor.  As the battle drags on, the stakes get higher and higher–and extend far beyond Wisconsin’s borders.

Watch the crowd.  Organized labor can only win with the support of people who use their services and aren’t in a union.  And in this case, a win would mean accepting large cuts in salaries and benefits.

It’s not Egypt here; there will be no helicopters on the State House lawn to evacuate defeated officials to a safer space.  “Regime change” of any kind is at least two years off, and things are unlikely to get any easier–for anyone.

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On Wisconsin: Class War and Coalitions

Calling the mash-up in Madison, where the Tea Party meets organized labor, “class war,” was Mike Huckabee’s idea.  Huckabee deplored President Obama’s choice to weigh in, rather modestly, on the conflict in Wisconsin.  (Class war, apparently, is a large problem when the working class is on the attack.)

More important, the political fight didn’t start with the protests in Madison last week, nor will it end.  Governor Scott Walker was no political neophyte, and has spent much of his political career promoting austerity and attacking labor–regardless of the political or economic climate.  Critics have been quick to point out that he cut a series of business taxes as soon as he took office, and that the limits on collective bargaining would have no effect on the state’s fiscal situation.  He was reluctant to waste the crisis of the state budget when he could stretch that crisis to go after labor.

So, what’s going on?  The attack on collective bargaining was the straw that broke the camel’s back (odd metaphor for unrest in the mid-West when protest is everywhere in the Middle East) for organized labor in Wisconsin.  Organized labor deployed its serious organizing capacity to mobilize opposition to Governor Walker, while supporters repeatedly announced that they were willing to make all of the financial concessions Walker described.  (For Governor Walker, making such a deal would be wasting the crisis.)

When labor went into the streets and activated union networks, others with grievances joined in, including students opposed to higher tuition, and some people who appreciated the services they received from teachers, police officers, firefighters, nurses, and clerks at the Division of Motor Vehicles.

To extend the political moment, fourteen Democrats in the state senate took off–apparently for Illinois.  They lacked the votes to defeat the Republican majority, but they could deny it a quorum.  Although this isn’t a common strategy, the Wisconsin Democrats were hardly the first.

[My favorite quorum filibuster story is about a group of Texas Democrats in the state senate who, in 1979, went into hiding in a garage in Austin, to prevent the legislature from moving the date for the presidential primary.  Calling themselves the Killer Bees, they drank, played cards, and watched soap operas for five days.]

For the Wisconsin senators in hiding, this was clearly an effort to give their allies time to get their case out and build support.   It prevents their opposition from moving forward.  It could lead to compromise and negotiation in the Senate, but the effects outside the State House are likely to be much greater.

Once the media were filled with reports of colorful protests of working people, their opponents fought back.  Americans for Prosperity, a key group in the Tea Party’s infrastructure (discussed here), founded and funded by the Koch brothers, took out web ads and started a site to support Governor Walker.  (Mother Jones reports that the Koch brothers were behind the attack on collective bargaining in the first place.)  AFP is using the crisis to build organization and mailing lists.

AFP also chartered buses to take Tea Partiers to Madison and stage a counter-protest, although their numbers were much smaller than those of Walker’s opponents.  Once both sides are represented in the streets, marching through Madison’s cold winter, the main story shifts in most outlets to one about a protest stalemate.  At this point, however, it’s pretty clear that Governor Walker is winning in the state house, and his opponents are winning the street.  (A professor at the University of Wisconsin has been participating in the protests and posting observations at scatterplot.)

Even as organized labor has continued to decline in America, there are still more unionized workers than, say, people who would be affected by a modest estate tax or a higher tax rate for people who earned over $250,000.

But neither plutocrats nor organized labor are terribly popular in America.  What happens next is all about which side is able to mobilize other constituencies.  Are parents concerned about the education of their children more likely to be sympathetic to their teachers or more outraged at the prospect of taxation?  The answer is going to shape politics in America for a long time.

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Americans Protest against Austerity Budgets

Activists see parallel struggles

Activists in Wisconsin have commenced staging dramatic protests against newly elected governor, Scott Walker’s plans for harsh cuts in public spending.  We’re going to watch to see if such protests spread across the American states the way revolutionary movements have spread across the Middle East.   If state governments explicitly adopt policies that target state workers, their salaries and benefits, and services like public education, it’s  a pretty smart bet to expect protests to spread beyond the snowy hills of Madison.

Lowering taxes sounds great, as does spending on useful programs.  The Federal government has been able to do both of these things by running large annual deficits.  States don’t enjoy the same latitude and have to work hard and creatively to find ways to avoid tough choices.

With even a modest bailout from the federal government unlikely, forty-five states face large budget deficits (out of a total of 50 states!).  It probably seems worst in your own state, but it’s terrible everywhere.

Republican Scott Walker campaigned on a promise to cut that deficit, and won election rather handily last November.  He’s sought to deliver on his campaign promises by raising fees (like college tuition) and cutting spending.  He’s directly targeted organized labor, promoting cuts in pensions and benefits, as well as salaries.  He’s also working to limit collective bargaining rights.

Protest at the state house

It’s not surprising that organized labor is fighting back.  The AFL-CIO joined other organizations in staging a demonstration at the State Capitol, which drew an estimated 30,000 people, including all sorts of public workers: teachers, firefighters, and police officers.  Students protesting tuition hikes have also joined in–and staged their own protests as well.  It’s not so surprising that people who are threatened react by protesting, nor is it surprising that their organizations are investing in their activism.  Forty-six percent of the voters don’t win elections, but they can do much much more in other ways.

What will be more significant–if/when it happens–is when the citizens who benefit from services–join in the effort.  Thus far, Governor Walker has been steadfast in his campaign to reduce the state–and particularly, to reduce the power of organized labor.  This isn’t so different from what he promised as a candidate, but it’s surely different from what some of his voters expected.  In Wisconsin, this is an early round of what will certainly be a battle that will occupy most of the next year.

And it’s not just Wisconsin.  In New Jersey, Republican Governor Chris Christie has embarked on a similar program, with a particular focus on public education, proposing the elimination of teacher tenure. Of course, organized teachers are trying to promote a broad campaign against his budget plans in general–and protect tenure in particular.  (Here’s a facebook page.)  When virtually everyone suggests that the prime answer to America’s educational deficit is improving teacher quality, cutting pensions and protections isn’t the obvious way to achieve this goal.

There are other approaches.  The new governor in Illinois, Pat Quinn, a Democrat, signed a large tax hike, and promises budget cuts at the same time.  This is likely to provoke everyone. Connecticut Governor, Dannel Malloy, has promised to protect pensions and collective bargaining, finding alternatives to cut spending (criminal justice reform), and finding alternative revenues.  The New York Times quotes Malloy:

Connecticut would not be Connecticut if we cut $3.5 billion out of the budget. We are a strong, generous, hopeful people. We’d be taking $800 million out of education. You can’t do that in this state. You’d have to gouge the Medicaid system. You’d have to close 25 percent of the nursing homes. What do you do with people?

In facing budget problems, states can target weak constituencies a) (e.g., Medicaid recipients), b) everyone (taxes), and/or c) strong constituencies (organized labor).  Historically, a governor could make a or b work.  Right now, however, it looks like most states will be going after all of them–and then responding to the protests they provoke.  What seemed politically viable in campaign rhetoric may not turn out to work in real life.  And we need to remember that elections punctuate political battles, they don’t generally end them.

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Irvine 11 news goes national

The Orange County DA’s decision to pursue criminal charges against the Irvine 11 continues to pay off for their cause.  The controversy around the criminal charges has percolated all the way from Irvine (my home), a suburban community of about 300,000 people, to the New York Times–and elsewhere.

[We’ve discussed the details of the event here and here.]

The story recounts the history of activism around Israel on the UCI campus–which is, in my view, not a particularly activist campus.  It reports on the broad support the indicted students have received from an organized faculty group and the American Civil Liberties Union.   It also emphasizes the tension between the Muslim Students Union and Jewish groups which, it suggests, sometimes spills over to the campus as a whole.  And the Times reports that Israeli officials speaking in the United States have sometimes faced similar disruptions–but disrupters haven’t previously faced criminal charges.

While OCDA Tony Rackaukas means to set some kind of example, his prosecution will wind up encouraging exactly the kind of action he means to shut down.

After the failed shout-down, protesters’ cause was overshadowed by their actions, and even the attention to the demonstration had begun to die down.

Criminal charges, however, have revived the event, opened a space in mass media for the defendants–and their supporters–to give their views on what’s really going on–in the criminal case and in the Middle East.  And, according to the Times report, heightened Muslim/Jewish tensions on campus (I haven’t seen this up close).

The Orange County DA, far from discouraging disrupting and uncivil behavior, has demonstrated that such actions can win you and your cause national attention, as well as the sympathy and support of bystanders who might not agree with you.

How smart is this?

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